Treading Thin Line Between Accessibility And Integrity
Richard Butler- charismatic singer, lyricist and main face of The Psychedelic Furs- is looking, sounding and feeling a lot better these days. In conversation, be speaks openly and laughs easily, and seems perfectly at ease with himself. In short, the 1984 Richard Butler makes a very different impression than his seething, volatile 1980 counterpart.
After several years of consistent hell raising with the Furs, and after a couple of close calls, in 1983 Butler severely altered his chemical habits-along with, apparently, his overall attitude towards life. The change is apparent on the new Psychedelic Furs LP, Mirror Moves by far the band's most accessible and melodic record to date.
Mirror Moves finds the Furs as a compact trio consisting of Butler, his bassist brother Tim, and guitarist John Ashton. The lyrics are positive and direct (by Furs standards), the melodies are downright hummable, and Keith Forsey's sparkling production is surprisingly successful. All in all, a far cry from the creative dissonance of the band's first two albums. The Psychedelic Furs and Talk Talk Talk
The original six piece Furs (including guitarist Roger Morris, saxist Duncan Kilbum and drummer Vince Ely) borrowed punk's do-it-yourself attitude, but with a very different result. The first two Furs albums assimilate countless influences into something unique, with the band endlessly lurching forward and with Butler's image laden, impressionistic lyrics on top. The original sextet's output stands as some of that period's most original and durable music.
By 1982, the band was a four piece (minus Morris and Kilburn) and was beginning to look for a new direction, recording their third Ip, Forever Now, with producer Todd Rund gren providing the band with a clear musical focus, as opposed to the restless experiment alism of the earlier records. Drummer Ely left after the recording of Forever Now, and the rest is….
The following interview with Richard Butler took place in the midst of the US. leg of the band's current tour.
You’ve been the topic of a lot of “pop stars cleans up his act” type stories lately. Is there anything you can add to all of this?
Richard: Well, I don’t think I’d over-blow it as much as people have but.. we do really long tours and it doesn’t make sense for me to be drinking and taking a lot of drugs on an eight month tour. I wanted to be as best as possible and if I’m drinking and taking drugs I won’t be able to do my best. So now I’m taking good care of myself.
We really enjoy touring. When we talk to people in other bands, they go “God, how can you tour so much?” Our tours are large by any standards but it’s very important for us to preserve our music face to face. That’s part of the job of bringing The Psychedelic Furs to people. This tour is more organized than any other tour we’ve done and it’s bigger in terms of production. We’ve got three different people playing with us and it’s quite a spectacular show. It’s very hard work but it’s what we love.
Mirror Moves seems like a very big departure for the band, musically and lyrically.
I don’t think the change has come overnight. There’s suddenly been a lot of sections on this album being a move away from what we were originally doing, but nobody has seem to have noticed Forever Now was quite a big move away in itself. I agree that Mirror Moves is a big move away from the first two albums but I don’t think it’s so far from Forever Now in terms of accessibility.
With Forever Now, it was great working with Todd Rundgren and it was great to step away from the first two albums, but in as for the actual direction, it was a bit of a cul de sac. We could have developed the album’s sound but I think it was a sound that could tend towards self indulgence if we weren’t careful with all those songs and stuff. Mirror Moves was much more of a return to basics, in terms of rhythm and I think it’s still a far easier album to build on. It was a joy to work with Keith Forsey and we’ve been talking to him about doing the next album. He’s definitely the producer we want to work with for the future.
Your lyrical attitude seems to have changed quite a bit on this album. On the first three albums, you seemed to be looking at the world with a mixture of amusement and disgust and assuming that there was nothing one could do to improve things. Mirror Moves seems to allow for the possibility of positive change.
“Yeah, I’m a lot more optimistic these days but having said that, I still feel cynical about a lot of things. I think I’ve gotten better at presenting both sides of things.”
Was the positive side always there for you, or did you only discover it recently?
“I think I’ve only recently discovered it. When I listen to the first two albums now, they seem really full of confusion, angst, disgust & cynicism but I don’t feel that way now. I think we can change things but I’m not the kind of songwriter that stands on a podium and shouts. I think you have to change things in a more gentle way for it to be effective. I think that this is a much more subtle album, as opposed to shouting. I also think “Here Come Cowboys” is ideal for the elections coming up (laughs).”
There’s a line in that song that goes “all we really need is love.” Is that your current philosophy?
“Yeah! I think a lot of the cynicism on the early albums was just me hiding my real feelings. The cynicism was largely a perception. I didn’t want to put my own feelings on the line as much as other people’s feelings which is easier. At the time, I wanted the songs to reflect my feelings other than performing them and with this album I think I’m generating feelings more.”
“You have to move on, I made the statements I wanted to make on the first two albums but you can’t sustain that kind of anger. I don’t want to sustain that kind of anger and it’s not a question of wanting to- I don’t feel that antagonizing anymore. Now I feel like I want to get through the people. I meet people all the time and I enjoy talking to them. I enjoy people a lot more nowadays. I think it’s just a natural process. I will feel a lot of anger but I don’t feel like I have to get it out and shout as much as I used to. The first two albums were probably very good therapy for me. When I’m making this album, I always say back and think of what I want for a song, and what I want out of a song has changed.”
Was taking time off between Forever Now and Mirror Moves a factor in changing your perspective?
“Yeah! It gave me a chance to catch my breath. Changing the place I live was very important. I now live in New York & I learnt more about myself. I believe in myself a lot more. I know my own capabilities and I’m not scared about the world anymore.”
What entranced you to New York?
“It’s the vibrancy I like. London was very sleepy and I found that having that around was very frustrating. I find that New York is more of my place.”
A lot of your fans probably think that England’s this wonderful place with all the new music happening and that America is so boring..
“They’ve got it totally wrong. England is supposed to be the musical center of the world, especially with this new invasion of British bands or whatever, but I can assure people that it’s not. I think New York is far more exciting, in fact, I’ve seen far more English bands in New York than I did in England. Nowadays there’s a big pop revival in England. Pop’s got a new credibility and I don’t like it. It’s like the mid 70s and it’s not very creative. There’s so much more musical excitement in New York now.”
What is your general opinion of this country?
“Well, I see things that I don’t like and I see things here that disgust me, but they’re the same things that I’d see anywhere. I love America and that’s why I chose to live here. I think that English people tend to be pessimistic about America and maybe that stems from the jealousy of America’s worldwide influence. That’s a normal thing- if you have two people and one’s poor and one’s wealthy, the poor one will start running down the rich one.”
You mentioned that what you want from your own music has changed. Has the way you listened to other people’s music changed?
“Yeah, I’m much more open in other people’s music nowadays. I’m not a big fan of one particular person on hand but I’ll turn on the radio and listen to all kinds of things.”
Does that have anything to do with the music on Mirror Moves being more accessible to mainstream ears?
“Yeah, I think it’s important to be accessible to a certain degree. We did two albums of criticizing and we never really thought about being commercial. The idea of being commercially never came into it and we just were out of the Psychedelic Furs music. But the nowadays I’m more aware that if you got something valuable to say, it’s almost your responsibility to have a go at saying it to as many people as you can.”
“The best rock music walks a thin line between accessibility and integrity. Like Bob Dylan, when he got “Like A Rolling Stone” into the charts, that was a big thing because he was between poetry and integrity in rock music. That is music at its best, as opposed to when somebody sets out to write something that they know lovesick teenage kids will like. But you don’t remember those songs when you’re no longer a lovesick teenage kid. Great rock music can bring something to people that fast.”
“The Beatles walked the line very well, and so did Chuck Berry, The Doors and the early Rolling Stones. Some of the Stones early stuff is great- “Get Off My Cloud”, “19th Nervous Breakdown” and “Paint It Black” are just incredible on every level. I think the Stones went downhill badly after that but the earlier stuff was great. And Prince is really good nowadays- I think he’s pretty much the most interesting character on the scene. I’ve also got an adoration for Sting nowadays. I was never a big fan of The Police. I always thought they were too poppy. But since then, I find what I like and respect Sting as an intelligent person- which I didn’t before until I started reading some interview he’s done.”
Do you share his views on pop stardom?
“Yeah, and I also like his ideas on trying to get along with different ways of thought. That’s something that I think is important and I adore his leanings.”
Could you elaborate on that?
“Well, I just feel a lot more spirituality in my life than I used to and that’s the bottom line of the change in the music. I’m not trying to get all hippy-dippy about it; it’s just when I slowed myself down enough to feel things, and opened myself up a bit more, I found a lot of spirituality in me and around me. Instead of putting out energy, I took the time to stop and take some energy in. In the field I work in, it’s very hard to find time to allow that to happen.”
Have you encountered any resistance to Mirror Moves from your longtime fans?
“Normally. Occasionally, longtime fans will come up and say “This album isn’t as good as the last two. Why have you sold out?” that it can’t sound as raw because Tim and John have gotten very good as players, and they’ve gotten very interested in sounds. The first two albums were pretty much live- it was like: walk into the studio, plug in your guitar and go. Tim and John have come a long was as musicians.”
That inspired amateur attitude was a big part of the band’s early appeal..
“With us, it wasn’t even an attitude. We were never inspired musicians. (laughs) And we aren’t anymore, we’re professional musicians and to pretend to be an inspired amateur would be phony, and I don’t want it to be phony. It would be ridiculous for John to walk into the studio and say “Oh I can’t play this part, it sounds too nice, it sounds like I can play.” We’re much more interested in sounds now as opposed to just going out and playing.”
Does the fact that there’s just three of you make it easier to keep things under control?
“Oh yeah, it’s always been us three who basically wrote the songs anyway, and it means now that you can write a song with an idea of the way you want it to sound, and have it end up pretty much the way you envisioned it. We can do that nowadays rather than having one writing a song and five other people arguing about a different way of performing it.”
How is the songwriting divided between the three of you?
“As for the music, it’s a fairly equal split between John, Tim and myself. Tim and I will write some songs in New York, and John and I will write some songs in London and then we all get together. John will say “Yeah, your songs are good or they sound pretty boring.” and he’ll start playing sounds that we should put on it. And Tim and I will go over John’s songs and say “Well, the sounds are alright but they got no structure at all.” And so, by the time we’re finished working with a song, we’ve all put in it pretty much equally. As for the lyrics, I tend to get a bit more of the limelight but musically it’s pretty equal.”
Mirror Moves is the first Furs albums to include love songs. I suppose that a lot of your earlier tracks could be defined as love songs but…
“I think they were songs about love, better than love songs. “Sister Europe” was kind of a love song but it was hidden behind imagery. This is the first album where I’m writing love songs that are straightforward instead of hiding behind any masks.”
Were you in love when you wrote those?
“I’m not telling you!” (laughs)
When were you first exposed to music?
“Well, I was really young because my old man used to play a lot of good stuff and I was too young to realize how good it really was. When I was about nine or ten, I was getting Bob Dylan albums. I was really lucky to grow up with that. He also used to play Hank Williams, Edith Piaf and Muddy Waters. He also played some real pop as well. I got a good musician introduction.”
Speaking of Bob Dylan, did he really write a song for The Psychedelic Furs?
“I’m not exactly sure if he wrote a song specifically for us. What happened was that he wrote and recorded a song and he didn’t like it and the song was given to us. I don’t know if he personally wanted it to be ours or not, whether it was his manager who wanted it- as he arrived at CBS stating “Bob Dylan would like the Furs to do this song, let them listen to it.” We listened to it, but it didn’t fit with the songs on the album, and we already had all the songs we needed. It would have been way out of place on there.”
Could you ever imagine the Furs doing a song by an outside writer?
“Definitely, I may be wrong but I think that if something came along that we thought would be perfect for a particular album, we’d do it. But as of now, nothing has presented itself.
Could you give the same sort of feeling into words you didn’t write yourself?
“That’s the hard thing about it. When you write, you have an aesthetic that is particularly your own. There’s a way of emphasizing things that are particular to me. On the album, it has become a lot clearer but I still won’t come up and say “I love you babe, don’t leave me babe” I just haven’t gotten it in me to write that way. There are particular words that I wouldn’t use.. and certain words I love.. and so to do a song of somebody else’s, I’d have to be happy within all that before I could believe in it, which is why I think one hasn’t come along yet.
Do you or did you ever feel a need to project a certain image for yourself or through songwriting?
“I don’t know exactly why my image is- it’s just me. I don’t think about it or plan it, or think “I’ve got to wear this and pretend to be that.” I just go out and be me and do what I do. I feel more of a performer these days and I feel very confident about my abilities in that area, which I didn’t always feel.”
Do you have any idea of what it is that your fans like about the Furs?
“I don’t know. I think the feelings that we are pretty much original- and I think that people feel the same angst and the same passions, and we’re getting better at putting all of that across. These days, I feel like I want everything with real passion- a passion that comes from inside, rather than a passion that isn’t something outside of myself. I used to tend to write angsty lyrics, whereas now I feel more of a passion within myself and I want to express that.”
I’d heard you’d been thinking about writing a solo album.
“Yeah, that’s something that’s been in the cards for awhile. I’d like to do it if I get the opportunity but the Psychedelic Furs are my main priority. I’m hoping I can do it maybe next year but I don’t know whether there will be.
How would a solo album of yours would differ from a Furs record?
“I wouldn’t have John or Tim on it with me. I would have to work with someone different. I think it would go in a different direction than the Furs but what the difference would be is hard to tell. I’m never writing outside of the band so if would be very difficult to predict what it would sound like. But it would surely be in a different direction.
Do you feel positive about the band’s future?
“Yeah! The band’s future has been definitely looking a lot better lately. It’s been really hard work but it’s work that we enjoy doing. We set ourselves up for this amount of work. We didn’t come out as a pop band, we didn’t come out with the easiest way of doing music, we didn’t come out with the easiest lyrics for lots of people to latch on to- and we didn’t come out with the easiest name for people to latch on to. We didn’t take a format for ourselves. We didn’t say “Okay, we’ll have this image and we’ll dress like this and we’ll play this kind of music.” We didn’t put the Psychedelic Furs together as a package for people to consume.. and so it’s harder to get people to stop and listen to us. But it’s worth it, in that I think we’re a band that’ll last longer than the current trend or this month’s flavor, or whatever.”
“When we were first signed over here, CBS Records said “We don’t see you as the kind of band that’s gonna have overnight success. We think it’s gonna take you about five albums to reach the degree of success that we’re aiming at for you.” And I think we’re pretty much on schedule. We’ve been very fortunate within CBS. People always ask if the record company tries to make us do things and they’re always surprised when we say no.”
“We’re a fiercely independent band. We’re not going to just sell out. We really have to believe in what we’re doing, and as such we’re not really open to making pop records. That’s not the main thing that we’re after, we’re after something more than just jumping in, making some money and jumping out again. We have to keep our integrity or else it wouldn’t be worth doing. I think CBS recognizes that and they also recognize that we’re a longterm band and that people will stick by us. We’re building up our audience slowly and it speeded up with the last couple of albums. We’re in a position now where people can look at us and still respect what we’re doing. And it’s equally important that we can respect what we’re doing. The bottom line is that we believe we care about what we’re doing and we wouldn’t split up because we weren’t having success with it.”
